So this Saussure guy. He rejects the idea that there is a "root" to language, a beginning that we can somehow get back to our linguistic roots (i.e., Sanskrit). He also rejects the idea that there is an authority figure (Divine or otherwise) from which meanings of words can be obtained. Instead, he argues that the association between signifiers and signifieds is completely arbitary (for example, if there is intrinsic value in the pairing of words to the objects that they represent, how can "dog" and "chien" and "Hund" represent the same thing?). I suppose you could argue that one of those is right, and that the other two are just messed up, but that's a moo point (a cow's opinion), because the purpose of language is to allow a "commun"ity of speakers to "commun"icate.
Rather than a naming process--which implies that there are pre-existing concepts and ideas being attached accordingly--Saussure argues that there is only a negative value to language. What we call something is completely arbitrary, except that it is different from all the other "somethings" in the linguistic system. "Box" is "box" only because "box" is not "shoe" or "mug" or "salamander." In a linear fashion, language is what it is because of what it isn't.
Now he doesn't say that--because there are no pre-existing names attached to concepts--reality doesn't exist outside of language. Rather, he would argue that it is entirely nebulous and out of our grasp, and that language enable use to articulate reality.
So, what is the point of all this rambling? Well, firstly I'm trying to wrap my head around some stuff, trying to say the same key things in a different way so that I "get it". But, it relates a lot to stuff that goes through my head on a regular basis. Especially spiritually... the language to which I have access falls pitifully short of expressing certain aspects of my faith, and I would argue Christianity in general. It's not that the concept or the feeling isn't there, but we're forced to work within certain parameters, within a limited system. We have to try to awkwardly fashion together a string of words that will communicate something that doesn't fit within the language available to us. I figure that's why we hear the same old same old. Words that pop up all the time, not just in the context of faith, but communication in general.
Instead of going all Big Brother/1984 and wondering if you can have the thought without the language, tonight I'm turning to a different question.
Can you “language” something (particularly an emotion or feeling) into existence (by which I mean it needs to take a form that can be expressed between human beings)? Is it possible, with the support of a willing community, to bring something from fuzziness into cognition through giving it a signifier and sound-image (see bit on sound-image below)? Is it possible that there are all sorts of ideas floating around in our heads that are nebulous and blurry and still exist but that we can’t express because the words don’t exist. . . not saying that there is a "presupposed system", but that there is a presupposed idea, or at least an already-present idea. Or maybe this will get us into just as much trouble. What would it take to do this? Can you invent words? Can you invent feelings? Can you invent reality? And even if you could do all that, would you still need to use ALREADY present signifiers/signifieds in order to describe the new signifiers/signifieds words? Would it require a WORD REVOLUTION? To draw a bit from someone else (Heidegger), can you "thing" new "things" into "thinging?"
Yeah... I dunno where I'm going with this. But, I like thinking about stuff along these lines. It confuses the hell out of me, and often leaves me wishing my brain worked better, but still... kinda cool.
I wonder what the hell I just wrote... meh, I'm going to go to sleep!
[edit]: I KNEW this would happen, and I'm pleased. A new tresaure discovered in the text. Deeper understanding, and thus, adjustment. Not of his argument yet, but to the terms.
"Sound-image" (from 'Course in General Linguistics'): [N]ot the material sound, a purely physical thing, but the psychological imprint of the sound, the impression that it makes on our senses. The sound-image is sensory... The psychological character of our sound-images becomes apparent when we observe our own speech. Without moving our lips or tongue, we can talk to ourselves or recite mentally a selection of verse.
Rather than a naming process--which implies that there are pre-existing concepts and ideas being attached accordingly--Saussure argues that there is only a negative value to language. What we call something is completely arbitrary, except that it is different from all the other "somethings" in the linguistic system. "Box" is "box" only because "box" is not "shoe" or "mug" or "salamander." In a linear fashion, language is what it is because of what it isn't.
Now he doesn't say that--because there are no pre-existing names attached to concepts--reality doesn't exist outside of language. Rather, he would argue that it is entirely nebulous and out of our grasp, and that language enable use to articulate reality.
So, what is the point of all this rambling? Well, firstly I'm trying to wrap my head around some stuff, trying to say the same key things in a different way so that I "get it". But, it relates a lot to stuff that goes through my head on a regular basis. Especially spiritually... the language to which I have access falls pitifully short of expressing certain aspects of my faith, and I would argue Christianity in general. It's not that the concept or the feeling isn't there, but we're forced to work within certain parameters, within a limited system. We have to try to awkwardly fashion together a string of words that will communicate something that doesn't fit within the language available to us. I figure that's why we hear the same old same old. Words that pop up all the time, not just in the context of faith, but communication in general.
Instead of going all Big Brother/1984 and wondering if you can have the thought without the language, tonight I'm turning to a different question.
Can you “language” something (particularly an emotion or feeling) into existence (by which I mean it needs to take a form that can be expressed between human beings)? Is it possible, with the support of a willing community, to bring something from fuzziness into cognition through giving it a signifier and sound-image (see bit on sound-image below)? Is it possible that there are all sorts of ideas floating around in our heads that are nebulous and blurry and still exist but that we can’t express because the words don’t exist. . . not saying that there is a "presupposed system", but that there is a presupposed idea, or at least an already-present idea. Or maybe this will get us into just as much trouble. What would it take to do this? Can you invent words? Can you invent feelings? Can you invent reality? And even if you could do all that, would you still need to use ALREADY present signifiers/signifieds in order to describe the new signifiers/signifieds words? Would it require a WORD REVOLUTION? To draw a bit from someone else (Heidegger), can you "thing" new "things" into "thinging?"
Yeah... I dunno where I'm going with this. But, I like thinking about stuff along these lines. It confuses the hell out of me, and often leaves me wishing my brain worked better, but still... kinda cool.
I wonder what the hell I just wrote... meh, I'm going to go to sleep!
[edit]: I KNEW this would happen, and I'm pleased. A new tresaure discovered in the text. Deeper understanding, and thus, adjustment. Not of his argument yet, but to the terms.
"Sound-image" (from 'Course in General Linguistics'): [N]ot the material sound, a purely physical thing, but the psychological imprint of the sound, the impression that it makes on our senses. The sound-image is sensory... The psychological character of our sound-images becomes apparent when we observe our own speech. Without moving our lips or tongue, we can talk to ourselves or recite mentally a selection of verse.
10 Comments:
As strange as thi smay seem that was actualkly a great posting, thought provoking and yet strangely brain-hurtingly intriguing (see there's a new word for you).
Random facts (not that I can prove any of them): The only langugage that isn't related to any other is Basque. Finnish and Hungarian are related.
Estonian is just strange, too many vowels for my liking. The Navajo language was used in WWII as no-one outside the native Najavo people speak it, the the Japanese couldn't crack it.
You can invent new words: Douglas Adam's The Meaning of Liff gives names to all manner of concepts or objects that have no known name, e.g. the name of the ball of fluff you get lodged in your navel. To call it "the ball of fluff lodged in your navel" somehow seems too long-winded.
BTW have you seen "30 days", with Morgan Spurlock (the guy from Supersize Me). Last night we had the episode where a Christian volunteer spends 30 days in the Muslim community to learn more about it and see how intolerant he was before. Not implying anything here, but was pretty eye-opening.
By Mike, at 2:40 a.m.
As for the navel-lint thing, I would say that it becomes much more difficult when dealing with concepts that cannot be classified as "objects". If I wanted to call a "frog" a "fozzwozzle" a la The Simpsons, it would be much easier to point to that creature and say "that is now going to be called a fozzwozzle."
It gets a bit trickier when trying to explain non-objects, like internal feelings, because there is no reference point, no plain of understanding on which to meet. And for that matter, how do I know what "happy" feels like to you? We think we understand what is meant by that word, but surely it's slightly different for everyone. But that's another rant for another time.
And look at what it took for me to "invent" a new word: I had to use words that we as a speaking community had already agreed upon ("that" "is" "now" "going" "to" "be" "called" "a"), and even if I said nothing and just pointed, we would still have the sound-image of "frog" lodged in our heads.
So every time I said "fozzwozzle" the immediate reference would be "that thing that used to be called a frog". Or "navel-lint" would be "that thing that used to be the ball of fluff lodged in your navel". And there's always the ambiguity that comes from now having two signifiers for one concept. So maybe you can invent new words but it takes generations to integrate them.... hmmm.
I like this stuff. I don't think my arguments / understanding of semiotics are good enough yet, but this is me start to pursue my love affair with linguistic theory.
By Sara, at 12:51 p.m.
I like that we (English speakers) bastardised French. Okay it isn't quite on topic but hey, digression in my middle name... wait no it's Joseph but let's SAY it is my middle name...
Examples:
(FR) demander = (EN) to ask
(EN) to demand = (FR) exiger
(FR) déranger = (EN) to disturb
(EN) deranged = (FR) fou (mad) - okay not a proper translation but as far as I know it isn't "dérangé".
(FR) expimenté = (EN) experienced
(EN). An dtehre I was thinking we got the word from the French ,and then they go and change the meaning.
(FR) exposition = (EN) exhibition
Now what's wrong with a good French (non-existent) word like "exhibition"? It came from French, or so you might thing. it looks French. Dammit it ends in "-TION" and would smell of garlic and onions if it could smell. but it doesn't, so there you go.
I feel better now... The sedation from the men in white coats is just kicking in...
By Mike, at 4:07 p.m.
I LIKE CHEESE!
By Brea, at 7:12 p.m.
That whole "bastardization of french" thing is one of the very reasons why philologists and Saussure's contemporaries were so keen to find the Sanskrit roots of language. It's not that English stole from French, it's that there are links between so many different languages.
English - Night
French - Nuit
Spanish - Noche
Sanskrit - Nakta
(I learned this 4 years ago in Lit 12 so I may have misspelled nakta)
They thought that they could get to the very beginning and find the "first breaths" of language as it evolved into modern forms.
It's kind of like a big bang theory, only there's no bang. Just breath.
Brea - I like cheese too! We should be friends.
By Sara, at 8:11 p.m.
And through translating piles of Spanish recently, how often do I come across something that is so beautifully articulated in Spanish, but loses its power or meaning when translated into English. It reveals how limited a language can be on its own. English has many shortcomings. I think we should all talk in Spainglish then, so we can take the best of both worlds.
And I thought Finnish was similar to Lithuanian? That's what I heard when I was in Finland...but the Finns might be wrong (odd lactose intolerant folk, who likely cannot enjoy cheese the way Brea does).
By ZAHiDA MACHAN, at 11:25 p.m.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By ZAHiDA MACHAN, at 11:31 p.m.
Sara: Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_languages
and the assdociated link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language
By Mike, at 2:28 a.m.
Was that just for interest or was there a particular bit you wanted to bring to my attention?
Fascinating stuff.
Some might argue that the tree is proof that there was an original root to language, but you have to take into account that there are different branches, and there doesn't appear to be a visible "root" of the tree that can account for all of the different languages.
Our buddy Saussure would say, well of course there are language branches because language is not static; it has no beginning and certainly no end. So language continues to evolve, but the agreement made by the community of speakers makes it very difficult to change language. Change happens gradually over time. But still many connections. between languages in each branch.
I'm not going to bother reading over that. Hope it makes some sense!
By Sara, at 5:24 p.m.
Just for interest.
And to show graphicall that there is a causal link between "chien" and "hund" back inthe midsts of time.
Language is fascinating in that it probably evolves so quickly now with world travel. e.g. what we see in films becomes common language instantly e.g. "schwing" and "d'oh!". It would have taken hundreds, perhaps thousands of years to make that cross teh Atlantic before steam liners and aircraft, by which time it would probably have evolved.
Oh and mispronunciations can create words too:
e.g. "Rue du Roi" became "Rotten Row" (path in Hyde Park, London), "Enfant de Castille" became "Elephant & Castle" (a neighbourhood in south-central London). "Montréal" came from old French for "Mont Royal".
Curiouser and curiouser. (argh, another invalid word that should be "more curious").
Right, that's my pointless comment over with, I am now off for a week's skiing in France :D
By Mike, at 7:47 a.m.
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